Better Lineup, NYY or BOS?

[cruzg24]

Its really not an issue, I just thought we were gonna talk about hitting not pitching.

 

[Giantmetfan07]

well we can talk about both...

 

[A.E]

well we can talk about both...

Yes, save your argument for the Pitching vs. Pitching thread!!!

I know I started it but then I figured we should save it for when the Yankees sign Lee & we get another thread to argue about. I've definitely got a good argument in store to support what the Yanks roto will be.

 

[jhaug98]

I'm going to say Yanks STILL!

 

[Phil The Thrill]

Reasoning?

 

[jhaug98]

Sure Crawford has speed, but he can be a "tad streaky" at times. Ago, he's a good power hitter but not a good base hitter. But don't get me wrong he can get the job done.

With the yanks on the verge of resigning Jeter, well he's THE most consistent hitter in the game. Then you have Cano, who has the ability to hit for power or just for bases. Tex and A-roid, well everyone knows what their capable of so why not!

 

[Giantmetfan07]

Sure Crawford has speed, but he can be a "tad streaky" at times. Ago, he's a good power hitter but not a good base hitter. But don't get me wrong he can get the job done.

With the yanks on the verge of resigning Jeter, well he's THE most consistent hitter in the game. Then you have Cano, who has the ability to hit for power or just for bases. Tex and A-roid, well everyone knows what their capable of so why not!

On the Verge? Where the hell have you been the last week?

A-Roid is aging and we've noticed it based on playing less than 140 games each of the last 3 seasons and also hitting less than 30 doubles each of the last two seasons. While he may be hitting for power still, he isn't as balanced as he used to be, with his AVG dropping .302 in 08, .286 in 09, and .270 in 2010.

Teixeira's a beast so I got nothing against him.

Jeter isn't what he used to be. I'd be surprised if he was a .300 hitter this season.

Not a very strong argument kiddo.

 

[A.E]

Okay, here we go...

CC Sabathia just went on record to say the Yankees are still the best team in the AL East & he's right. Boston's pitching is suspect, their bullpen is crap, and despite signing Crawford & acquiring A-Gon, their line-up remains inferior. Why is the Yankees' lineup still better? Read on.

Before we start pointing the finger and calling the Yankees lineup 'old', let's take a step back and consider what kind of season Boston is coming off of. I saw GMF criticize A-Rod for not playing more than 140 games the past 2 seasons but at least he's been on the field for 85% of the season. I shouldn't even have to get into how his hip surgery was (the right) a decision that keeps him healthier in the long run. I'm reading a lot about how great this Boston lineup will be with Pedroia, Ellsbury, JD Drew, maybe a little Cameron...AND all missed significant time last season. I mean forget about how all 4 will come off injury, let's just all start giving them high praise right now!?!

I've already pointed out how Carl Crawford isn't comfortable leading off & he won't. While this is the best choice for him, its not doing Pedroia any justice. Pedroia is no leadoff hitter, he'll struggle, and at some point, Tito will start tinkering with Ellsbury at the top of the order. I'll say right now that there's no getting around Crawford-Youkilis-Gonzalez. That's a disgusting 2,3,4 but what about A-Rod-Tex-Cano is peanuts? I'll give the Red Sox "big 3" the edge in age but that's about it. Alex Rodriguez is regressing but he's still one the best hitters in all of baseball. A-Gon is too and he's younger, that's usually the way it works. Youk is good, Texeira is better, and I would seriously put Cano's bat up against Crawford's any day. I know we're talking about 2 different spots in the lineup here but screw it, both run producers & the way I see it, the next great hitter in the game of baseball is Robinson Cano.

David Ortiz strung together a good season but he's starting slower each year & I think it's nearly time to put a fork in him. I really think he could make or break the heart of the Red Sox' line-up and it might be wishful thinking...but I think he's bound to break it, especially in the first half. Curtis Granderson seems to be forgotten in the conversations. Not coming off the best year at the plate but his bat woke up late & I don't sweat anyone's first season playing in New York. Granderson is barely 30, should be more comfortable, and I expect 150 hits from him this season. I won't even field an argument for JD Drew anymore. Our rightfielder is a grinder, a personality, productive in too many ways, and just a better baseball player. Factoring catchers into the equation is tough but I have to lean towards the Yankees potential. Not even the Red Sox are comfortable with Salty and Varitek stop impacting the lineup 2 years ago. Jed Lowrie is another make or break guy, I like his potential to impact the Red Sox lineup but I also love the prospect of Jesus Monero who will be on the big league field by the All-Star break.

Ultimately, we're talking about whether or not the Red Sox have caught up to the Yankees. I wouldn't say they are better at all but I'd argue their top of the order has caught up. Boston added some serious lefty bats with Gonzalez and Crawford; however, there aren't a pair of lefty arms I'd rather match up with than CC Sabathia and Cliff Lee. The Yankees are now the older team but the lineup depth is better and I think the Red Sox are dependent on too many guys staying healthy and productive. Consider this Red Sox lineup when Papi struggles and JD Drew is again on the DL. Nothing could ever amount to the biotch it was to face a Manny-Ortiz faction in the early 2000's. We got through it then and we aren't afraid of what Boston has got now.

 

[bosoxlover12]

Boston's lineup is most likely this:

CF Ellsbury
2B Pedroia
LF Crawford
1B Gonzalez
3B Youkilis
DH Ortiz
SS Lowrie
RF Drew
C Saltalamacchia

Francona stated today that he believes Boston's best lineup "is with him [Jacoby] batting leadoff"

 

[bosoxlover12]

IMO this lineup would be beast for NYY

1. Granderson
2. Cano
3. Rodriguez
4. Teixiera
5. Jeter
6. Swisher
7. Posada
8. Cervelli/Montero
9. Gardner

 

[Giantmetfan07]

IMO this lineup would be beast for NYY

1. Granderson
2. Cano
3. Rodriguez
4. Teixiera
5. Jeter
6. Swisher
7. Posada
8. Cervelli/Montero
9. Granderson

well yeah... when you have 2 Grandersons.

And i dont know where you're getting this idea of Jeter batting 5th... He'd bat 2nd, and move 2-4 down 1 slot each.

 

[bosoxlover12]

On PSD, someone posted this info (i dont remember exactly where, so quotes arent 100% exact)

leadoff hitter should be your high OBP guy
#4 hitter should be your power guy
#3 hitter should be your 2nd power guy
#2 hitter should be your best or 2nd best hitter
#5 should be best remaining.... #6-9 is the same

 

[Elite]

On PSD, someone posted this info (i dont remember exactly where, so quotes arent 100% exact)

leadoff hitter should be your high OBP guy
#4 hitter should be your power guy
#3 hitter should be your 2nd power guy
#2 hitter should be your best or 2nd best hitter
#5 should be best remaining.... #6-9 is the same

No.

Leadoff should be a speedy guy with a good OBP.
#2 should be a good contact hitter.
#3 is your best hitter if he has pop
#4 is your main power guy who should be able to hit for a decent average
#5 is also someone you should have who can hit for power, doesn't have to be though
#6, 7, 8 should be your best hitter left
#9 should be someone with decent speed so they're not clogging up the basepaths when your lineup turns over and you get to the top of the order

My Yankees lineup, without egos (eg. putting Jeter 1st because he's the captian and all that <Censored>)

1. Brett Gardner LF
2. Robinson Cano 2B
3. Mark Teixeira 1B
4. Alex Rodriguez 3B
5. Curtis Granderson CF
6. Nick Swisher RF
7. Jorge Posada DH
8. Jesus Montero/Francisco Cervelli C
9. Derek Jeter

Pretty much using the same formula I put, other than having your best hitter hit 3rd, Cano was our best hitter last year and he's hitting 2nd here.

I'd probably change something around but that's what I'd like to see on Opening Day.

 

[bosoxlover12]

here it is

LINK

Lead-Off

The old-school book says to put a speedy guy up top. Power isn't important, and OBP is nice, but comes second to speed.

The Book says OBP is king. The lead-off hitter comes to bat only 36% of the time with a runner on base, versus 44% of the time for the next lowest spot in the lineup, so why waste homeruns? The lead-off hitter also comes to the plate the most times per game, so why give away outs? As for speed, stealing bases is most valuable in front of singles hitters, and since the top of the order is going to be full of power hitters, they're not as important. The lead-off hitter is one of the best three hitters on the team, the guy without homerun power. Speed is nice, as this batter will have plenty of chances to run the bases with good hitters behind him.

The Two Hole

The old-school book says to put a bat-control guy here. Not a great hitter, but someone who can move the lead-off hitter over for one of the next two hitters to drive in.

The Books says the #2 hitter comes to bat in situations about as important as the #3 hitter, but more often. That means the #2 hitter should be better than the #3 guy, and one of the best three hitters overall. And since he bats with the bases empty more often than the hitters behind him, he should be a high-OBP player. Doesn't sound like someone who should be sacrificing, does it?

The Third Spot

The old-school book says to put your best high-average hitter here. The lead-off hitter should already be in scoring position and a hit drives him in. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

The Book says the #3 hitter comes to the plate with, on average, fewer runners on base than the #4 or #5 hitters. So why focus on putting a guy who can knock in runs in the #3 spot, when the two spots after him can benefit from it more? Surprisingly, because he comes to bat so often with two outs and no runners on base, the #3 hitter isn't nearly as important as we think. This is a spot to fill after more important spots are taken care of.

Cleanup

The old-school book says to put your big power bat here, probably a guy with a low batting average, who will hit the big multi-run homeruns.

The Book says the #4 hitter comes to bat in the most important situations out of all nine spots, but is equal in importance to the #2 hole once you consider the #2 guy receives more plate appearances. The cleanup hitter is the best hitter on the team with power.

The Number Five Guy

The old-school book says the number five guy is a wannabe cleanup hitter.

The Book says the #5 guy can provide more value than the #3 guy with singles, doubles, triples, and walks, and avoiding outs, although the #3 guy holds an advantage with homeruns. After positions #1, #2, and #4 are filled, put your next best hitter here, unless he lives and dies with the long ball.

Spots Six Through Nine

The old-school book says the rest of the lineup should be written in based on decreasing talent. Hitting ninth is an insult.

The Book basically agrees, with a caveat. Stolen bases are most valuable ahead of high-contact singles hitters, who are more likely to hit at the bottom of the lineup. So a base-stealing threat who doesn't deserve a spot higher in the lineup is optimized in the #6 hole, followed by the singles hitters.

That Whole Hitting The Pitcher Eighth Thing

The Cardinals and Brewers have hit the pitcher eighth in the past, and it's actually a smart, albeit insignificant, strategy. Yes, giving an awful hitter more plate appearances by hitting him higher in the lineup is costly, but the benefit of having a better number nine hitter interacting with the top of the lineup is worth the trade-off, by about two runs per season. By putting a decent hitter at the bottom of the order, the top spots in the lineup will have more runners on base to advance with walks and hits and drive in with hits.

This strategy isn't as worthwhile in the American League, because even the worst position player will be on base significantly more often than a pitcher when the top of the order comes around. Only bat the worst hitter eighth when he's significantly worse than anybody else -- maybe someone like Adam Everett or Tony Pena Jr.

Final Thoughts

Another way to look at things is to order the batting slots by the leveraged value of the out. In plain English (sort of), we want to know how costly making an out is by each lineup position, based on the base-out situations they most often find themselves in, and then weighted by how often each lineup spot comes to the plate. Here's how the lineup spots rank in the importance of avoiding outs:

#1, #4, #2, #5, #3, #6, #7, #8, #9

So, you want your best three hitters to hit in the #1, #4, and #2 spots. Distribute them so OBP is higher in the order and SLG is lower. Then place your fourth and fifth best hitters, with the #5 spot usually seeing the better hitter, unless he's a high-homerun guy. Then place your four remaining hitters in decreasing order of overall hitting ability, with basestealers ahead of singles hitters. Finally, stop talking like the lineup is a make-or-break decision.

For all the nitty gritty details, I highly recommend getting yourself a copy of The Book, which goes into even greater detail about the strategy of lineup construction, including platoons, separating lefties in the lineup, strikeouts, avoiding GIDPs, and preventing the pitcher from hitting.

 

[VC15]

Going by your formula, I would switch Swisher with Granderson.

It's not a bad line-up though.

 

[Elite]

A-Rod can still run a little bit and Swisher is slow as hell, so I liked the idea of having A-Rod in front of him who wouldn't really hold him back from turning a single into a double or a double into a triple like Swish would.

 

[Phil The Thrill]

As much as I love Jacoby, no way he bats leadoff. He will bat ninth, which pretty much gives us a double leadoff in Ellsbury and Crawford.

 

[A.E]

IMO this lineup would be beast for NYY

1. Granderson
2. Cano
3. Rodriguez
4. Teixiera
5. Jeter
6. Swisher
7. Posada
8. Cervelli/Montero
9. Gardner

Granderson isn't a patient enough hitter to leadoff, he strikes out too much, never hits for average. Gardner has the speed to lead off and he's becoming a more patient hitter. Cano's bat is now big enough to bat 3rd and Jeter at the 5th spot is an insane idea.

 

[Brsox04]

Red Sox.

Just look at the Yankees top 3 offensive players: Arod, Tex, Cano. We can just about MATCH that with Youk, Agon and Pedroia. Then we still have Crawfish, Ells and Drew who is still a great OPS guy.

Also, this is how I can see the best lineup possible for us:

Pedroia
Crawford
Youkilis
Gonzalez
Ortiz
Scutaro
Drew
Salty
Ellsbury

You have Pedroia/Crawford/Youkilis because those are your big OBP guys. Getting them 1-2-3 would be very hard. That almost always sets up at least an Agon with one guy on. You put Scutaro between Ortiz and Drew only because 3 lefties in a row is a bad idea. Lastly, Ellsbury should be a great #9 guy.

 

[VC15]

I forgot that the other six players in our line-up are minor-league caliber at best...