Hypothetical NL MVP Question

[Mexi]

I heard this during the Dodger game the other day and cant stop thinking about it.

Votto and Pujols are the 2 favorites for NL MVP right now. Both are very close to capturing the Triple Crown.
Their teams are also so close in the standings.

Who wins MVP if one of them wins the Triple Crown but doesnt make the playoffs?
The person who doesnt get the TC could be likely be 2nd in all 3 categories.

and when players are so close, doesnt team positioning become important?
but the triple crown, though not as awe striking as it once was, is still extremely rare. hasnt happened in the NL since 1937

 

[snipezo]

Has to be the guy who gets tc. MVP has to be given to the player that is the best player in their respectable league IMO.

 

[playmaker7]

I say the Triple Crown winner. Thats such a hard accomplishment and truly shows just how much skill is involved in the process. Its nothing anyone can accomplish, only the best of the best earn such an achievement. I'd give it to that player no matter if he was on the worst team ever because batting is kind of a single person thing...well I guess RBIs are a team effort...but you get the point I'm trying to make.

 

[elcheato]

Not a hard decision. If someone gets the triple crown they will win the MVP.

 

[Giantmetfan07]

Triple Crown, hands down.

 

[Mexi]

ok so im going to continue using Votto and Pujols for my example (sorry Cargo)

lets say Pujols finishes with 37 HR, 115 RBI, .325 AVG and achieves the triple crown
and lets say Votto finishes with 36 HR, 113 RBI, .324 AVG. sooooooooo close

BUT, the Reds win the Central by 8 games. The Reds! THE REDS. the same reds who have been crap for so long.

does Pujols still win MVP? the triple crown is so overrated. has to be Votto in this instance IMO. give Pujols the silver slugger

 

[VC15]

Whoever leads their team to the playoffs.

 

[Giantmetfan07]

ok so im going to continue using Votto and Pujols for my example (sorry Cargo)

lets say Pujols finishes with 37 HR, 115 RBI, .325 AVG and achieves the triple crown
and lets say Votto finishes with 36 HR, 113 RBI, .324 AVG. sooooooooo close

BUT, the Reds win the Central by 8 games. The Reds! THE REDS. the same reds who have been crap for so long.

does Pujols still win MVP? the triple crown is so overrated. has to be Votto in this instance IMO. give Pujols the silver slugger

I understand your point, but I still side towards the statistical aspect. I understand making the playoffs is a huge difference but to me its not like they wouldnt have made the playoffs without Votto -- it would have been a lot closer but I feel like they may have still made the playoffs.

But maybe they wouldn't have... is it easy for us to judge wether or not a player had that much of an impact on his team's outcome?

You can be a hell of a hitter, best in the league in terms of statistics and lead that offense to be stellar, but if your team loses a large number of games due to poor pitching does that warrant the player having an award like the NL MVP stripped away from him?

So what your telling me is similar to this scenario of a pitcher:

3 pitchers finish season with:
Wainwright - 20-10, 2.22 ERA, 195 Ks - 58 BBs - Playoffs
Jimenez - 21-6, 2.58 ERA, 188Ks - 74 BBs - No Playoffs
Halladay - 18-11, 2.32 ERA, 215Ks - 31 BBs - No Playoffs

thats just hypothetical -- but my point is -- Similar record and ERA, More walks and Less strikeouts but not by a large amount -- does Wainwright deserve the Cy Young more than Halladay just because his team won the Wild Card?

thats why I feel like I also need to look at hitters' BBs vs Ks to get a better feel:

Votto: Currently 100 SO, 74 BBs
Pujols: Currently 61 SO, 80 BBs.

Pujols still has drawn more walks and struck out less. He's a more all-around hitter because he has a better eye at the plate and puts the ball in play more often.

Pujols also has 31 doubles vs Votto's 27 doubles. The numbers are still close but favor Pujols. And it's not like one of them is heavily favored in terms of clutch hitting. Votto has just 1 walk-off hit this year against 0 for Pujols.

 

[Mexi]

Cy Young is different. It's truly the best pitcher in each league. MVP is not a most outstanding player award like the cy. it accounts for everything as well as having a great season

and i know you're using hypotheticals, but i need to say this
Votto has a higher OPS and SLG% than Pujols. He can still finish with a higher OPS/SLG that Pujols and still be barely behind in the triple crown categories

and also, the Cards have a better pitching staff than the Reds

 

[Yankees2772]

How is the triple crown overrated? You haven't witnessed one in your life... And one hasn't happened in the NL since 1937.

 

[Mexi]

it's just a rarity

sure it's rare and because of that, i would like to see it, but it's not as sacred as it was back in the day

if Pujols wins the triple crown this year lets say, it wont even be the greatest season of his career, but it'll always be looked at that way

it's as overrated at the cycle.
same with pitchers w/l records

if Pujols gets the triple crown lets say .325/37 HR/125 rbi
and Votto finishes second not by much, .323/36/123 rbi
but Votto has the higher OBP and SLG%, everyone will say Pujols had the better season when thats not the case

 

[Giantmetfan07]

it's just a rarity

sure it's rare and because of that, i would like to see it, but it's not as sacred as it was back in the day

if Pujols wins the triple crown this year lets say, it wont even be the greatest season of his career, but it'll always be looked at that way

it's as overrated at the cycle.
same with pitchers w/l records

if Pujols gets the triple crown lets say .325/37 HR/125 rbi
and Votto finishes second not by much, .323/36/123 rbi
but Votto has the higher OBP and SLG%, everyone will say Pujols had the better season when thats not the case

another good point, but I personally shy away from SLG% and OBP. I look more at the Walks - Strikeout ratio and I like Pujols' numbers in that category more. In my opinion it portrays him more all-around because he strikes out less. His OBP may be slightly less but it shows he puts the ball in play more often, which to me is more important when it comes to driving in sacrafice runs or w/e.

But you make a really good case, kinda hard to disagree.

 

[cruzg24]

How is the triple crown overrated? You haven't witnessed one in your life... And one hasn't happened in the NL since 1937.

x2. Triple Crown is one of the toughest achievements in pro sports so I could favor the player with the Triple Crown because although that player's team didnt make the playoffs. That player is more valuable due to his defense. If you look at the way Pujols plays defensively and the run prevention he creates with his defense. As mentioned as well, Pujols has a better K-Walk ratio which shows you the quality of hitter Pujols is. I also take into consideration lineup protection because a lot of teams are pitching around Pujols because they are going after other players.

 

[Mexi]

well if you want to talk about saving runs, according to fangraphs, Votto has been better defensively than Pujols this season...

it's really amazing how similar they are this year

and you're missing my point a little i think

 

[Elite]

How in the world is the cycle or the Triple Crown overrated? They're both extremely hard feats to accomplish. To be able to hit for enough power and hit for a high enough average is an amazing feat in itself, but to also drive the most runs in is extraordinary.

 

[elcheato]

Pujols' average is slipping as of late, don't think he's gonna get close to Votto in average near the end of the year anyway. The question is if Votto can make up that 3 HR difference.

 

[Mexi]

How in the world is the cycle or the Triple Crown overrated? They're both extremely hard feats to accomplish. To be able to hit for enough power and hit for a high enough average is an amazing feat in itself, but to also drive the most runs in is extraordinary.

all about opportunity

just because player A has more guys to drive in doesnt mean he's better than player B
look at james loney vs prince fielder

James has .275 AVG, and 80 RBI with only 8 HR
Prince has .269 AVG and 69 RBI with 28 HR

you wouldnt really take James over Prince would you? RBI is an overrated stat. it's all about opportunity. put Prince in Loney's spot and his rbi numbers are probably amongst the top in the NL

as for the cycle. cmon man do i really have to explain this :/

 

[Elite]

Getting 4 hits in a game is impressive, getting 4 DIFFERENT types of hits is a rarity.

And you have to look at RBIs in context. It's not because Loney has more chances to drive in runs, it's that he does well when he is in a position to. With men on base, Loney hits .320 and with RISP he hits .329. When Prince is up with men on base, he hits .235 and with RISP he hits .221.

Pujols hits well with runners on and RISP as he's around the .320s in both, but Votto is hitting in the .380s in these situations. They're about even in terms of # of ABs in this situation yet Votto still has only has a slight advantage in the RBI column, not quite sure how that happens -.-

 

[Mexi]

Getting 4 hits in a game is impressive, getting 4 DIFFERENT types of hits is a rarity.

And you have to look at RBIs in context. It's not because Loney has more chances to drive in runs, it's that he does well when he is in a position to. With men on base, Loney hits .320 and with RISP he hits .329. When Prince is up with men on base, he hits .235 and with RISP he hits .221.

Pujols hits well with runners on and RISP as he's around the .320s in both, but Votto is hitting in the .380s in these situations. They're about even in terms of # of ABs in this situation yet Votto still has only has a slight advantage in the RBI column, not quite sure how that happens -.-

yeah the cycle is a rarity, still overrated though

a guy who hit for the cycle with 1 rbi, the hr, will get more pub than the guy with 2 HR and a double. just dumb

as for Pujols and Votto's RISP numbers, it's because Pujols walks more with guys in scoring posistion

 

[snipezo]

Don't count cargo out yet. He's top 5 in every triple crown categories and 1st in avg.