Eric Gordon or Tyreke Evans?

[jonathanlambert33]

If in a fantasy world, injuries were non-existent, and salaries were irrelevant, which of these two Pelican wing players would you take?

Eric Gordon:

15.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 2.0 topg, 43% fg, 32 mpg

 
Tyreke Evans:

11.6 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.2 spg, 2.0 topg, 40% fg, 25 mpg

 

[Pugz]

probably eric but ive always liked reke. it's tough but i think eric would be just as successful with horrible team as he would with a very good team. reke has shown how he plays with a bad team and i think his scoring g would dip in a better team.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Wouldn't want either of them on my team.
 
I'm only half trolling

 

[RipCity32]

I'd much rather have Gordon.

 

[Pugz]

Wouldn't want either of them on my team.
 
I'm only half trolling

so youd want one on your team? lol

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Well no I said that kinda trying to troll nola but I really don't like either that much.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

It was impossible to watch the Pelicans – Kings game and not see how terrific the Holiday/Evans combo was on both sides of the ball. Their length created turnovers on the defensive end and their speed got open looks for themselves and teammates on the offensive side of the ball. Both guys are combo guards that can defend multiple positions, and even have the strength and craftiness to slow down big men when they have to rotate. Holiday and Evans are the perfect guards for Monty’s system, but there is one tiny problem – Eric Gordon is still here.

In a defensive system that asks players to rotate so frequently, Holiday and Evans have the length to close out on shooters and the size to at least make a big work for points when they rotate onto them down low. Eric Gordon can not do either of those things. Offensively, Evans and Holiday are both facilitators while Gordon is a pure scorer. On a team where Ryan Anderson and Anthony Davis need 30-35 shot attempts combined per game, the former is needed far more than the latter.

The top Two-Man combination for the Pelicans this season? You guessed it: Jrue Holiday and Tyreke Evans. In the 328 minutes that the combo has played together, the Pelicans are +83 (a little more than +12 per 48 minutes). The free throw rate skyrockets up to 33.8% (up over 9%). The teams field goal percentage climbs more than 5%, as does the three-point percentage. Meanwhile, the opposition’s free throw rate goes down and their turnovers go up.

Best four-man unit by a mile? Yep, Jrue, Evans, Anderson, and Davis. That is the core of this team moving forward and what a core it is. Per 48 minutes, they outscore their opponent by over 20 points while having a rediculously low 10.6 team turnover percentage.

http://www.bourbonstreetshots.com/2013/12/24/jrue-holiday-and-tyreke-evans-are-the-pelicans-backcourt-of-the-future/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Well no I said that kinda trying to troll nola but I really don't like either that much.

I really don't see how you could not like either of them a little bit, unless you're still trolling. I would be able to see why you don't like Gordon, but I doubt you're basing it off of all the minutes you've watched him play this season.

In Reke's case, his only real downfall is his inability to hit perimeter shots. He can get to the rim whenever he wants and finishes at one of the higher rates in the game. He can also finish a very high percentage of his shots in the paint, which for whatever reason seems to lack in todays NBA. He also has an excellent post game, mainly because of his size and strength, which kind of makes up for his lack of a perimeter game. I wouldn't say that really hurts him that much anyway. Then there's obviously his passing ability, which is damn near elite for a wing player. He's also a solid defender, which is another plus, as noted in that previous post before reading this one. He's also an above average rebounder for his position. There really isn't much to not like about him.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

I would never want a two-guard on my team who can't hit threes.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Shitty reasoning but ok.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

How is that shitty reasoning? You're just trying to defend your player and I understand that.

 

[bosoxlover12]

In general basketball starting lineups


C: defensive anchor
PF: best inside scorer
SF: main scorer
SG: 3pt shooter
PG: passer

 

[bosoxlover12]

You obviously can mix and match them around, but generally need to have it equal


For the Pels, they have the general basis.

Davis is the defensive anchor
Holiday is the passer

But by having Anderson as the 3pt shooter, you are either missing an inside scorer or a main scorer. And Tyreke is neither of those

 

[jonathanlambert33]

How is that shitty reasoning? You're just trying to defend your player and I understand that.

It has nothing to do with the fact that he's on my team, there are a number of guys that I wouldn't defend in certain circumstances on this team. But your thoughts on Tyreke, I don't know, they just seem like thoughts from someone that has rarely seen the guy play and is just looking at raw stats.

You wouldn't take him because he can't shoot threes? DWade can't shoot threes either, so you wouldn't want him on your team? The reasoning is just off. We are talking about a guy that because of his size, skill, and athleticism can play the point and both wing postitions, and play them all effectively. A guy that makes everyone around him better because of his ability and willingness to get into the lane and either kick it out for an open perimeter jumper after he attracted the help, or can dump it off inside to a big for an easy play at the rim. A career 24% assist rate and has hit 25% or above in three of his five seasons. That makes him a hair underneath the elite passing wings in the league. Even without a reliable jumper he can still put up 15 or 16 pts off the bench on any night, and as a starter would probably be pushing 20 a night, his inability to consistently hit an outside shot from two or from three doesn't hurt him and more importantly, doesn't effect the other four guys on the floor with him. Teams are always better with Tyreke on the floor, read the earlier quoted article. I'd also argue (though I shouldn't have to) I'd rather a guy attack the lane and get a much higher percentage shot (layup) or the most efficient shot in basketball, a free throw, rather than settling for a long inefficient two. He is also one of the best wings in the post the league has to offer, drawing a foul 40% of the time and shooting an incredibly percentage from downlow.

That's why "I don't want him because he can't make threes" is shitty reasoning. Aside from his midrange and perimeter game, he is well above average at everything else he does. 30 teams would love to have that, at the right price.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Not to mention, I don't have the slightest idea why you would single out one particular player, at one particular position without looking at the other four players he's surrounded with on the floor. The obvious example here, Ryan Anderson. The premier stretch big man in the NBA. Those two have played 300 minutes together, and when they're on the floor together, the team shoots 48% from the floor, 42% from three, gets to the ft line 28 times per 100 possessions (and makes 21 of them, 1.5 ppp, also translates to a ft rate of 31% which is really good and third on the team), and outscores the opponent by 9 pts. The only tandem that is really better is any tandem that involves Anthony Davis. And Jrue Holiday and Tyreke Evans, which outscores opponents by 12 pts when they're on the floor together. Jrue at PG, Evans on the wing, Anderson at PF, and Davis at C outscores opponents by 20 pts and don't turn the ball over (just 11% of the time).

Even outside of Anderson, Tyreke plays with Jrue Holiday (40% from three), Eric Gordon (39% from three), Anthony Morrow (47% from three), and Brian Roberts. Then you have Anthony Davis rim running which opens a lot up. Having a SG that can't shoot threes isn't a problem.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Comparing Dwyane Wade to Tyreke Evans is probably a sign that you've had one too many Christmas cocktails today, so I'll ignore that all together. Let's take a look at Sports Illustrated's list of the top 10 SG's in the NBA:
 
http://nba.si.com/2013/03/22/nba-shooting-guards-rankings-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade/
 
Outside of Wade, and Iguodala (who is really a SF and is actually still a 33.2% three point shooter in his career), who on that list is not a good three-point shooter? There's reasons why Tyreke Evans is not on this list and that is one of the biggest ones. But let's talk about why I wouldn't want a non-shooter on my team starting at SG, unless it was the HOF-bound Dwyane Wade:
 
Simply put, the midrange jumper has become a lost art in basketball. Since you like to make fancy tables to act proper about these debates, and my relatives aren't coming over until much later, I'll make one too. This is based on Shot Data from hoopdata.com from the 12-13 season.
 

 
 
Here's the explanation. The blue bar is the field goal percentage of every type of shot in basketball. The red bar is the points per shot based on these percentages. As you can see, the ONLY shot types that have a PPS above 1 are the shots at the rim and three pointers. Therefore, if I am a basketball coach, I would want to gear my offense to mainly get those two shots. You see this more prominent in college basketball (especially with Giant Killer teams like Davidson, Belmont, etc.), but it's also a theory used by many coaches in the pros. Mike Krzyzewski (not a pro coach, I know) isn't the one who started this theory, but it's pretty prominent with Duke Basketball. The only players who really shoot mid-range shots ever on our team are Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood, two players who will be first round draft picks next year and can basically get whatever type of shot they want at any time.
 
So now let's bring this back to Reke. Obviously, Reke is good at getting to the rim. But let's take a look at how his shooting statistics from all the spots in the graph above compare to the league average (this is again data from last season):
 

 
As you can see, Evans is below the league average at EVERY spot! That's remarkable. I'll call at the rim a wash because they're very close. His 10-15 feet percentage was his best since his rookie year (43.2%), but in the two years in between that he shot 25.0% and 23.2% respectively, so in averaging these four years together, it's fair to say he's below average at this spot. Now three-pointers: also pretty close to the league average, but could easily be called an outlier, especially considering his percentages this year. No question he's below average here.
 
So now, why would you want a SHOOTING GUARD on your team that is below average at every spot on the court outside of the rim? Seems to me there are plenty of shooting guards who can score the ball more effectively that that. Here's just a few of them (all SG's in the league who played 30+ MPG last year):
 

 
Throw in Jamal Crawford (29.4 MPG), Gordon Hayward (29.3 MPG), Dion Waiters (28.8 MPG), and maybe a few others and that's probably an accurate list of SG's I'd take over Tyreke Evans.

 

[bosoxlover12]

Very well done CC

where did you get those graphs and stats from?

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Stats all from hoopdata.com.
 
Graphs I made in Excel based on those stats.

 

[bosoxlover12]

According to 82games.com, Tyreke Evans has an eFG% of .188 on jump shots. Let that sink in; 18.8%.


That has to be a record, right? He misses over 8 of every 10 jump shot he takes. Those are bad numbers for bigmen, but for a guard?!

 

[RipCity32]

So. Much. Win.