2016 NBA Draft Prospects Thread

[jonathanlambert33]

Agree 100%

I don't care how fast someone can run, how high they can jump, or how quick they can move laterally. I'll take the guy who is more smart, instinctful, and will compete his butt off 100% of the time.

 

[Pugz]

Agree 100%

I don't care how fast someone can run, how high they can jump, or how quick they can move laterally. I'll take the guy who is more smart, instinctful, and will compete his butt off 100% of the time.

same. timing and knowing where to be is everything. those intangibles just help make up for some shortcomings. at some point, the dudes need to know how to play defense.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Pelicans are high on Dragan Bender, reportedly like his fit next to AD.

 

[bosoxlover12]

There is no way he's gonna fall to them, however. He's a lock at #4 if he doesn't go earlier, and New Orleans doesn't have any assets to move up.
 
 
But I agree he's actually a great fit. They've been looking at Asik and Ryno and others, and I would say Bender actually is the best fit. He's a perimeter defender with a 3pt shot, and is a good weakside rim protector.
 
 
If the Pels can get him, its a perfect fit -- but I don't see it happening

 

[jonathanlambert33]

I don't think he will fall either, I think there is the off chance but it would surprise me. Every year we see guys that are "locks" to go at a certain time that don't.

 

[bosoxlover12]

Look, maybe something like this could happen
 
Celtics with the #3 pick select Bender, and then if Murray falls to #6 (which I assume he would) a 3 team deal could happen
 
 
Pelicans get: #3 overall pick (Dragan Bender)
Sixers get: #6 overall pick (Jamal Murray), 2017 NO 1st, G RJ Hunter
Celtics get: C Jahlil Okafor
 
 
idk

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Not a good deal for Philly

 

[bosoxlover12]

was just the first thing i thought of. probably add another 1st to that deal

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Heard the Pels are actually really high on Jamal Murray and would take him if he's there at 6.  That would make me so happy.  
 
I'd seriously consider taking him in the top 2.  To me, he's Damian Lillard with more potential for better playmaking and better defense.

 

[bosoxlover12]

lol
 
How can you ignore how slow he is? his feet move as if they are 15lbs heavier than they should be. His cuts are really strong, and can change direction really well as he attacks the basket, but it feels as if its done at 85% normal speed when he does. And better at defense? How bad do you rate Lillard defensively? Murray looks like the worst defender of the consensus Top 7, as he lacks the quick step to get around off-ball screens and gets blown by quicker defenders often. It's not like he's lazy either, as he tries really hard to be solid on defense -- but he isn't made to be a good defender at the pros.
 
I also severely question his ability to create separation, and with his mid-to-low shot release point, that's not a good thing. He often has to push off a little bit to get that space when on iso situations, which if too reliant on will be called for offensive fouls constantly.
 
 
I stand by my original projection for him -- he's Eric Gordon 2.0. Of course as a New Orleans fan you're probably fine with that, but that is nobody I'd want to take in the Top 5 (granted, prospect Eric Gordon was much better than what New Orleans got). I see no reason to take him over Simmons, Ingram, Hield, Dunn, or Brown, and I would take Bender over him too. He's my #6 prospect (I really don't like Chriss either).
 
 
Saying he's Lilliard-lite is a disgrace, imo. Hield is a lot more like Dame than Murray is

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Hield definitely doesn't have the ball handling to draw a Lillard comparison

 

[jonathanlambert33]

lol
 
How can you ignore how slow he is? his feet move as if they are 15lbs heavier than they should be. His cuts are really strong, and can change direction really well as he attacks the basket, but it feels as if its done at 85% normal speed when he does. And better at defense? How bad do you rate Lillard defensively? Murray looks like the worst defender of the consensus Top 7, as he lacks the quick step to get around off-ball screens and gets blown by quicker defenders often. It's not like he's lazy either, as he tries really hard to be solid on defense -- but he isn't made to be a good defender at the pros.
 
I also severely question his ability to create separation, and with his mid-to-low shot release point, that's not a good thing. He often has to push off a little bit to get that space when on iso situations, which if too reliant on will be called for offensive fouls constantly.
 
 
I stand by my original projection for him -- he's Eric Gordon 2.0. Of course as a New Orleans fan you're probably fine with that, but that is nobody I'd want to take in the Top 5 (granted, prospect Eric Gordon was much better than what New Orleans got). I see no reason to take him over Simmons, Ingram, Hield, Dunn, or Brown, and I would take Bender over him too. He's my #6 prospect (I really don't like Chriss either).
 
 
Saying he's Lilliard-lite is a disgrace, imo. Hield is a lot more like Dame than Murray is

I don't think Murray is anywhere near Lillard athleticism wise, but saying you can't compare one player to another because of their athleticism is an incredibly lazy argument, almost as bad as comparing two white players just because of their skin color.  But the way you're acting, with how slow Murray is, just shows how uninformed you are regarding Murray.  Is he going to be able to come in and contain someone like Isaiah Thomas off the dribble?  No, but his issues defensively are more technique than lack of ability to move his feet or "quick step" as you put it.  Acting like that's the end all be all for a perimeter defender is another incredibly lazy argument on your part, it's not even the most important factor to being a quality defender.
 
He's not Eric Gordon 2.0, that's another lazy comparison.  Eric Gordon, even in his prime, was not only an incredibly low IQ player on both ends, he was also very lazy on both ends.  Not to mention he was never anywhere near the shooter Murray is and never had the ability to create for others like Murray does.  You know that phrase in football regarding QB's, "he can make all the throws," Murray, like Lillard, can not only make all the shots, he's elite at them.  
 
Have you watched Murray away from Kentucky?  Playing for Canada or even in HS All-Star games?  Or hell, when guys like Ulis were off the floor at Kentucy?  Calipari as a coach has a great ability to take guys out of their roles, but to still find a way to get that guy to thrive.  There's a reason Murray was viewed as a PG before thriving at Kentucky.  Murray has the ability to not only score in a multitude of different ways, but also create for others, like Lillard.  Unlike Buddy, saying he's more like Lillard than Murray is pretty embarrassing, tbh.  As much as I like Buddy, the one question I've always wanted to hear answered is, what is the second thing he's going to do at a great or elite level to impact the game?  Not to mention the ball handling, passing, creating, etc Lillard has.
 
I really don't get why people aren't salivating over Murray.  I'd challenge anyone to find me guys who averaged 20+ points a game at a major program as a Freshman while taking 8 a game.  I don't think you could find even 2-3.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Buddy is, right now, where Klay was in year 2 or 3 in the NBA.

The question is whether he will be able to add to his game like Klay did.

 

[bosoxlover12]

Clearly you evaluate defense differently than I do. I'm not going to bother arguing, because you're stuck on your ideology and I'm stuck on my own. 
 
 
Nobody was ever doubting Jamal's shooting ability, however. 

 

[jonathanlambert33]

If you think foot speed and lateral movement is the most important thing on defense, then you are evaluating it wrong.  
 
Anyone with any real basketball knowledge would tell you this.  It's not arguing and it's not debating, those are just the facts.

 

[bosoxlover12]

If you think foot speed and lateral movement is the most important thing on defense, then you are evaluating it wrong.  
 
Anyone with any real basketball knowledge would tell you this.  It's not arguing and it's not debating, those are just the facts.

For off-ball defense? Pretty damn fucking important.
 
And anyone with basketball knowledge? Here's Kevin O'Connor (analyst for DraftExpress, SBNation, and SportingNews)'s analysis of Murray -- of which his insight is far greater than mine and yours
 

 

[Stray32]

^where in that did he say its the most important thing on defense
 
it's not, if it was then teams would get burned every time they switch

 

[jonathanlambert33]

^where in that did he say its the most important thing on defense
 
it's not, if it was then teams would get burned every time they switch

 
when the only thing he picks on is the fact that his feet make him look like he's 15 lbs heavier than he actually is I'd say his opinion that ability for the player to move his feet is the most important thing.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

For off-ball defense? Pretty damn fucking important.
 
And anyone with basketball knowledge? Here's Kevin O'Connor (analyst for DraftExpress, SBNation, and SportingNews)'s analysis of Murray -- of which his insight is far greater than mine and yours

It's important, but not nearly the most important thing.

Instincts, for example, have always been and will always be more important than how fast a guy can move his feet.
 
and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

But like I said in my original post, Murray's issue is far more defensive technique and discipline rather than how fast he can actually move his feet.  You get him with a guy like Darren Erman for example, who is going to fix his poor defensive stance, he's suddenly going to look a whole lot quicker laterally than he did at Kentucky.  His poor stance is just one example too, there are a lot of little things you won't see in that scouting report that he could approve upon which would make him a much better defender than he currently is.
 
If you re-read that scouting report, O'Connor is harping more on his defensive fundamentals than his foot speed and lateral movement.

 

[Stray32]

 
when the only thing he picks on is the fact that his feet make him look like he's 15 lbs heavier than he actually is I'd say his opinion that ability for the player to move his feet is the most important thing.

sorry should've clarified, I was asking bosox where O'Connor said that