bosox+TiTAN Mock

Also, his arm strength issues are a myth. He has a better arm than Bortles does.

elcheato said:

Flaws are easier to justify and work with when you have ideal size. With Manziel there are questions on his arm strength, pocket presence, play style, footwork, tendency to throw off balance, etc.., to go with his size. It's not a good look. Can't look at him like a Drew Brees or Russell Wilson considering they're pure passers, and are the outliers, not the rule.
 
Could he slip in there somewhere? Sure, but I think his stock is going to fall.

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Thats your hindsight bias speaking right now. I just looked back, and pre-2012 NFL Draft you compared Russell Wilson to Seneca Wallace and Troy Smith. You said he'd be a Round 5-6 guy for you. Now that he's a Super Bowl winning QB, he's probably a Top 12 QB in the NFL.
 
Manziel has a better deep ball than Bridgewater and Bortles, and I don't think thats even up to debate. He might not be a refined pocket passer, but neither was Wilson really. I believe Manziel CAN throw in the pocket, but like Wilson, he excels when throwing on the run.
 
And like Teets said, maybe Cleveland and Jacksonville doesn't want him. But there will be reports probably come Draft Day that they do, probably out of the Rams camp, just to improve the trade value, or just so they can mask their appreciation for Bridgewater so nobody moves up. But Oakland won't call their bluff, and will move up to get the guy w/ the best deep ball

Yes, I was wrong, it is completely hindsight. But that has nothing to do with Manziel

Mobruler said:

 
I don't know what philosophy Oklahoma State played on defense, but Michigan State played quarters on pretty much every down.  Dennard got much less safety help than a corner usually would because the safeties were strictly assigned to their own specific portions of the field.  Even with Dennard playing 1 vs. 1 much more than a corner usually would, he was still arguably the best corner in the country.
 
In my mind, this would make a corner much more attractive than a little bit of size or a 40 time would.

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Dennard has the highest floor of all the corners, but Gilbert has that Patrick Peterson potential to him. He's really fast, so he wont get burned often. He fits the Lions' non-press DB scheme, and he has the ability to shut down a WR. I personally think of Gilbert as the #3 CB in this draft, but in terms of fitting scheme, he fits so well. Also adds a lot of ST value

The publicity killed Manziel.  If he had just stayed under the radar and not made himself a subject on TMZ, I think he's the unanimous #1 right now and being 6'0/6'1 instead of 6'2/6'3 would't have changed that.  The problem with holding the negative publicity against him, is that it never affects him in actual football games.  All he does is kill defenses.  
 
After an off-season of turmoil where he really soured people on him and earned a weird suspension for the first half of the first game, he went ahead and threw for 3 TDs in the second half and turned a 28-21 halftime score into a blowout win.
 
Then, in the third game of the season, he just went for 464 and 5 TDs against Alabama.  This brought his total in the 2nd and 3rd game of the season to 890 and 8.
 
If you want to hold being friends with Lebron James, being asked to leave a Texas frat party, excessively celebrating after beast plays and what a geriatric and racists bigot in Barry Switzer has to say about him against him, then I just don't know what to tell you.
 
 I'll trade Matt Stafford right now for the pick that drafts Manziel.  Show me where I sign.

Mobruler said:

 I'll trade Matt Stafford right now for the pick that drafts Manziel.  Show me where I sign.

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I mean, Houston would do that in about 2 seconds...

Again, I said their were questions on his arm strength, even if it is a myth, it's talked about. When you're his size, you need passing ability and attributes that separates you from the pack. He's not Michael Vick, he doesn't have his elite speed. He doesn't have elite arm strength, he doesn't have elite accuracy. He's got decent to good arm strength, he's got good accuracy. But it doesn't separate him.
 
People can talk all they want about size not mattering, but there are only 2 starting QBs in the NFL listed at 6 feet or under. It's a hindrance, and it will hurt his draft stock, if it hasn't already.

bosoxlover12 said:

Dennard has the highest floor of all the corners, but Gilbert has that Patrick Peterson potential to him. He's really fast, so he wont get burned often. He fits the Lions' non-press DB scheme, and he has the ability to shut down a WR. I personally think of Gilbert as the #3 CB in this draft, but in terms of fitting scheme, he fits so well. Also adds a lot of ST value

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I'm not saying Dennard doesn't have a higher ceiling as anyone else, but you said it yourself that he has the highest floor.  This is very important as most secondary players drafted do not pan out.

elcheato said:

Again, I said their were questions on his arm strength, even if it is a myth, it's talked about. When you're his size, you need passing ability and attributes that separates you from the pack. He's not Michael Vick, he doesn't have his elite speed. He doesn't have elite arm strength, he doesn't have elite accuracy. He's got decent to good arm strength, he's got good accuracy. But it doesn't separate him.
 
People can talk all they want about size not mattering, but there are only 2 starting QBs in the NFL listed at 6 feet or under. It's a hindrance, and it will hurt his draft stock, if it hasn't already.

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People just automatically assume small QB's have a weak arm. It's ridiculous. The whole short QB's can't play is a thing of the past. It's doesn't matter. Sure there are only 2, but they have proven they can still be damn good. There's a crap load of 6'4 QB's who suck because they can't play QB. That's what it comes down to. Can you play QB, and the answer, IMO, is yes. He's not Mike Vick, but he's the closest player since, his elusiveness is almost Vick, and is much stronger a mental passer, even at this point in Vick's career, which really is sad.

elcheato said:

Again, I said their were questions on his arm strength, even if it is a myth, it's talked about. When you're his size, you need passing ability and attributes that separates you from the pack. He's not Michael Vick, he doesn't have his elite speed. He doesn't have elite arm strength, he doesn't have elite accuracy. He's got decent to good arm strength, he's got good accuracy. But it doesn't separate him.
 
People can talk all they want about size not mattering, but there are only 2 starting QBs in the NFL listed at 6 feet or under. It's a hindrance, and it will hurt his draft stock, if it hasn't already.

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The size issue for me isn't as much about height as it is that he isn't thick enough.  I wonder if he can take the hits and stay healthy.  
 
But I thought we've moved on from such rigid height judgments in an era where Drew Brees and Russell Wilson are top 10 QBs.  If a guy can play, a guy can play.  And Manziel can really play.

bosoxlover12 said:

 
I mean, Houston would do that in about 2 seconds...

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Tell your people to call my people, we'll make this happen.

Bengals1fan said:

I'm not sold on Dennard. What I saw in looking through his film was that he's fairly slow and more of a physical corner. Which is fine, but he could get burnt easily by a quicker reciever. I personally like Gilbert better in the fact that he's a little taller and quicker. Because physicality is something that isn't vital to success, while speed/heighth are in todays league. 

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Fine, if none of y'all are gonna do it I will.
 
About size:
Gilbert is 6'0, 202
Queze is 5'11, 191
 
One inch and eleven pounds isn't exactly a difference maker, bud.
 
And I don't know how you can say physicality doesn't matter as much as speed. Last time I checked running fast doesn't equal pass breakups and INT's. You can be as fast as the day is long, but you need to know how to play defensive back too. Look at Seattle, they just won a Super Bowl with big, physical corners. Only one of their top 4 corners (Sherman, Browner, Maxwell, Lane) ran below a 4.45. While Dennard isn't as big as any of those guys, he's got the physicality going for him. He's also got some of the most fluid hips of any CB in this class. Pile that together with his awareness and you've got the top press man CB in the draft.
 
 
I can see why he won't fit some teams schemes, like Bosox said. Gilbert fits better for the Lions and for a few other teams.